The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen “Breadman” Edwards giving his thoughts on various topics including the aftermath of Devin Haney’s first loss to Ryan Garcia, what it means for Haney and his team, where Garcia goes now, plus David Benavidez’s future and Terence Crawford’s bout with Israil Madrimov
What’s Up Bread,
As someone who has had a dislike of Ryan Garcia for his entire career, I have recently changed my opinion on him and I truly feel sorry for the kid and believe that he definitely has some mental problems.
I believe everyone involved in this fight knows it and it is unbelievable to me how many people are allowing this to continue.
Boxing is already a sport where the fighter has the ultimate say-so and surrounds himself with people who are yes men and anyone working with fighters have to bend at will to these fighters, someone like Ryan who’s already worth 50+ million you can imagine how that would be.
And all the people hanging on for the ride with the rich fighter is even worse when the fighter has some truly mental problems.
This is scary situation with a broken system and it’s continuing to put someone with mental problems into a sport where he’s getting his head beat continuously.
No one’s going to say anything because they are getting their money, James has stayed completely hush on anything involving Ryan’s antics because he KNOWS it and he’s there for the paycheck. And you know what that’s all good and well he owes nothing to Garcia and it’s just some guy giving him a paycheck, he’ll do what he was paid to do train Garcia and get him physically ready for the fight, but the idea makes me sick.
I think everyone around Ryan sees the problems and no one will do anything until it all comes crashing down completely. The problem is that we see a lot of the problems before the crash is too bad and no one wants to fix it before it becomes severe. I understand the ideas behind these guys, if they don’t do what they are currently doing by just staying hush and acting like all is well then Garcia will just pay someone else to do it the problem is this is a sport where someone can get hurt and also someone with mental issues will continue taking shots to his brain.
I really do truly believe you would be the type that would NOT be allowing this fight and would back out as trainer even with the paycheck. We’ve seen in history plenty of hanger-ons waiting for the downfall of a fighter but I believe this is different and this is doing that with someone who has clear mental health problems.
I’m sure you won’t comment on James as it’s not his job to mentally diagnose a fighter, it’s to train him, and they aren’t long time friends or anything. But this feels wrong and I believe they all know it and no one cares enough to stop it because he brings them money.
Disgusting to me.
Thanks
Jake
Bread’s Response: I respect your concern but this comment just didn’t age well. I think fans get WAY too involved without KNOWING. How would you know that Derrick James was just in it for a check?
If you don’t know Derrick personally or have intimate details of what’s going on in camp, then you don’t know. I’m not disputing anything you said because I don’t KNOW. But what I do know is Ryan won the fight. I also think boxing fans are ruining our sport. Not you in particular but the fans overall in boxing are awful. They crap on fighters who lose. They make up rumors and lies to satisfy their subjective preference. And this category is for you specifically. The fans get too involved with the personal stuff.
Ryan makes 8 figures for his fight. He may be selling himself. He may not be. He may have mental health issues. He may not. I’m not saying I don’t care. But what I’m saying is I don’t know Ryan personally, so I don’t get overindulged. I enjoy the events/fights and that’s that.
Imagine if Ryan listened to you and didn’t fight. That victory just saved and enhanced his career. You can’t be squeamish and make it in this sport. Again, for the record I’m not disagreeing with you. But what I’m saying is you have to stay in your place and not get so preoccupied with things you’re just speculating on. If Ryan, his team and his family are ok with him fighting, then I am.
Good day Bread,
Hope you are doing well. I was just watching a short video interview you did. I think you were in a car if I’m not mistaken, and you were talking about Bivol vs Beterbiev and just about Beterbiev in general. There is something I don’t like about Beterbiev and if I was handling a fighter in or around his weight class I would stay away from him. He hits guys on the back of the head.
Every single time he hurts a guy it is from a clubbing shot on the back of the head or at least on the side of the head. I can’t recall one KO that didn’t originate from a shot like that. Not only that but in the Callum Smith fight his blood test came back with elevated testosterone levels. But apparently not high enough to be in violation of the guidelines. What the hell is that all about? Nah, it’s just too suspicious. So Bivol is fighting him next because he really wants that undisputed title and good for him.
I’m sure the way he sees the fight playing out is that he won’t be mixing it up anyway so he’s willing to take the risk. Benavidez was talking about facing the winner of that fight and if I’m him I stay away from that. Unlike Bivol, Benavidez comes to go to war and he’s definitely gonna get hit. A fight like that could ruin a promising career. I believe Benavidez is close to being the next P4P or the face of boxing or whatever people wanna call it. And so why risk it? It’s not as if Beterbiev is a huge draw. It won’t be life changing money. And he’s getting close to 40 so even if Benavidez wins, the naysayers will say he’s over the hill.
It’s just a lose-lose fight.
Thanks Bread
Bread’s Response: I appreciate your concern but again, if you aren’t a part of Benavidez’s or Bivol’s family why would you advise them to NOT want to fight the best. However, the testosterone levels are a concern, I will admit that’s a valid concern if a fighter is using drugs. I’m not saying Beterbiev is a cheat but his levels are concerning.
But the back of the head shots are something you tell the ref about. And if he does it to you, don’t just do it back. Do it RIGHT back! This is boxing! If a fighter fouls my fighter, I tell my fighter to foul them back. No complaining. Let me complain as the trainer. But no complaining as a fighter.
These men have to be hard and they can’t think like full time businessmen and be great for the most part. I’m not saying some fighters don’t think like this but for the most part, your mindset will take away from them. Beterbiev does throw borderline rabbit punches to the side/back of the head. I’ve seen it, too. But a fighter who wants to be great is NOT going to duck him because of that.
Again the levels are a valid concern. But before I speak on that I would need more details as to why Beterbiev’s levels were high.
I think it’s time for Devin Haney to replace Bill Haney. I thought the plan for the Ryan Garcia fight was horrendous and someone needs to be held accountable. It seemed to be a plan based on an assumption that Garcia wasn’t in shape. Well, he was in shape. Since Garcia didn’t gas out, having Haney follow the bigger man with a big punch all around the ring was pretty dumb. Haney probably would have won comfortably if he moved laterally and boxed.
Do you agree with my take, or am I being too harsh on Bill Haney?
Thank you!
Bread’s Response: Listen, a plan has to be executed. All plans are MEANT to work. I admit that last Saturday was NOT Devin’s best moment. But his dad got him to 31-0 and two division championships. He’s also made millions and he was a P4P top 10 fighter before Saturday. How poor of a job could he have been doing?
I admit that Devin did make some technical mistakes and he didn’t adjust to what Ryan was doing. But I don’t know whose fault that is. Devin has a team of trainers and he also has Ben Davison and Lee Wylie advising him from a technical aspect from the U.K. In boxing, things work until they don’t anymore. And I’m just not sure that firing his dad is the answer after one loss. Let’s see how things go, moving forward.
Breadman,
Wow, that must be one of the craziest fights in history from the buildup to the way it played out. Ryan Garcia might just have become the biggest star in boxing overnight.
This could be his Fury-Wilder 1 moment. I am still concerned however about his behaviour and how he will now handle all of the attention (and smoke-blowing) that will come his way. We have seen many fighters implode over the years.
I note that in the ring post-fight he stated that he has ADHD. Whether this is true or not I don’t believe it is ADHD that caused him to clearly have a double chin in the lead-up to this fight.
Even if the intention was to come in heavy for an advantage, it clearly was not done the right way. You can get away with these things when you’re young, countless fighters have in the past, however it does catch up with you eventually.
My immediate reaction to the fight itself is mainly three things:
1. I remember probably years ago now you wrote that people will not like it because he’s an ‘Instagram Star’ but you can see some reminiscence of Sugar Ray Robinson in the way Ryan throws some of his punches, specifically some of his hooks. I think it was the third knockdown, he put Devin down with a lightning left hook with no wind-up while going backwards! It was very Sugar Ray-esque and natural, the type of thing you really can’t teach. You either have it or you don’t and it’s rare.
2. It looked like Ryan’s arms were longer than Devin’s and this seemed to cause a lot of the difficulty for Devin in avoiding shots that normally he wouldn’t get hit with. This possibly combined with Devin never fully recovering from the first time he was hurt. It looked and sounded like Devin’s jaw was broken, and I’m not sure how much of this fight he will remember. Devin was either fighting pridefully out of ego in going after Garcia so often and so aggressively – which a lot of young vs young matchups tend to see – or he was simply concussed for most of the fight.
He wasn’t fighting to a gameplan which is out of character for him.
3. Team Haney going ahead with the fight after Ryan came in 3.2lbs overweight may be the first mistake they have made in Devin’s career. I’m not sure if the heavy blows Devin took from a fighter who seemed to have a significant edge in size and strength are worth $1.5 million.
Hindsight is 20/20 and in retrospect there were signs that Devin could be pressured, hurt and troubled by a smaller man than Garcia in the fight with Lomachenko – that everybody seemed to forget was controversial at the time and could have gone either way.
I am also not one to count others’ money, but if the rematch with Garcia isn’t next then it is likely that they have lost more than the $1.5 million in purse/backend money in taking this loss. Much Respect (to you and these young champions).
Bread’s Response: 1. Yes I’m glad you remembered that. Ryan punches in a heavy type of whip. Often times heavy punchers don’t whip and whipping punchers aren’t heavy handed. Ryan Garcia is both like the great Sugar Ray Robinson was. I hope no one confuses this with me saying Ryan is as good a fighter as Robinson because I’m not. I’m just talking about the delivery of his punches. That’s it.
2. I can’t say Devin wasn’t fighting to a game plan because I don’t know what their gameplan was. Here is what I will say. Fighters in general get infatuated with why they had some success. Devin looked good vs Prograis and scored a knockdown. It’s obvious he’s been doing weight training. So it looks like he’s become infatuated with his size and power. That’s how he fought in my opinion. Now maybe that was the game plan. Maybe it wasn’t.
What’s interesting is, I personally told Devin about 3 years ago in Vegas that he was a terrific boxer, had a terrific set of legs and not to try to force KOs, it would put him in harm’s way. I don’t know everything and I was definitely WRONG about this fight. I thought Devin would win. But I felt that the media and the fans were criticizing Devin and he was falling into the criticism by trying to force KOs. So..
I also believe that Devin never fully recovered from getting hit on his temple in the 1st round. He won rounds after that. But his legs weren’t up under him. Devin has been around, so he knew how to hide it. But I thought he was hurt and sort of stayed hurt the entire fight.
3. The weight situation is tricky. Devin made weight so he deserves props for being professional. Ryan didn’t. 3lbs is a lot…..Team Haney would have been well within their rights to not fight. But I respect the fact that they did. I don’t like to say what I would’ve done because these situations are tougher than most would think. No one wants to work for 8 plus weeks to NOT get paid. Fighters are confident. So I fully understand not pulling out.
But what I don’t understand is Devin not making Ryan rehydrate to a certain weight. Once Ryan missed weight, Devin had the upper hand. The fine is cool but what about the rehydration weight! The rehydration weight is MORE important than weigh-in weight. So Ryan missed weight and all he had to do was pay a fine. I thought Team Haney should’ve made Ryan weigh in in the dressing room before the fight and if Ryan is over say 153lbs then NO fight. After Ryan missed weight, what could he really say? That to me is more of an issue than missing weight and missing weight is a big deal.
Ryan really made out, not only did he miss weight but he got to rehydrate as high as he wanted to. That was no bueno for Devin.
Boxing is a humbling sport. But most aren’t humble until they lose. It’s just how fighters and their teams are wired. Devin was undefeated and he thought he had developed past Ryan in the pros. He thought he could beat him regardless of Ryan’s advantage of missing weight. If they fight again, I am reasonably sure that Devin will NOT fight Ryan if Ryan misses weight. And if he does, clauses will be in place for rehydration. It’s not just learning from your mistakes. It’s being humble enough to realize that you can LOSE. Now Devin knows he can LOSE and he should be better for it moving forward.
Salutations Breadman,
I hope all is well with you and the family.
We boxing aficionados truly appreciate your grind for all these years. I’ve been tapped in since I believe it was BoxingTalk days. I made the awful mistake and assumed I knew what/ how the Haney/Garcia fight was going and was preoccupied during the 1st round, and immediately dropped what I was doing when I heard the excitement from the crowd and the announcers. That’s one of the moments that sums up why we enjoy this sport so much. Boxing is quickly evolving and I think Ryan Garcia may be one of the pioneers or the gauge from which to measure the future stars of the sport. He is essentially Jake Paul 5.0. With all his antics, social media presence, his vulgarity, his appeal to RELIGION, mental health, his alleged philanthropy (don’t know the validity to his claims), not caring about the belts, making weight, good looks, etc….. He may be intentionally and or unintentionally really breaking through another stratosphere, breaking the old model of boxing, and setting this new social media/boxing/entertainment realm.
The conventional things that we’ve become used to may and will be soon out of the window. But in a sense, the saying goes, the more things change, the more things stay the same. Shout out to both fighters, and especially Devin for not quitting and steadily pressing forward. My bad for being so wordy. I was excited to see if you would add this to your bag.
What are your thoughts brother?
J Money
Bread’s Response: I can’t address everything but I want to address something specific. Devin does have some BIG N%$S. He was concussed, hurt and I’m assuming embarrassed and he fought through it all. I really respect that. Not only did he fight through it, he tried to win and was pressing the fight after being hurt by a bigger puncher. I was impressed with Devin’s heart and I hope this loss doesn’t make him gun shy. Devin can make a couple of adjustments and get back to where he was. No need for a complete overhaul.
Hey Bread,
Hope all is well.
Well, Garcia did it. He bamboozled us all. There might very well be an asterisk to that win but it was impressive nonetheless. Anyways, there has been much talk of an immediate rematch between Garcia and Haney but I tend to think Garcia should target Teofimo. He’d have an opportunity to complete and go 2-1 vs the ‘Kings’ gauntlet. Can you see that fight being made next? Garcia is a legit gun. He has a chance to finish the gauntlet before the other three even looked at each other. Lance.
Bread’s Response: After the fight, I said to myself Ryan Garcia fought Tank Davis and Devin Haney at the top of their games. I respect that. That’s some serious experience and Ryan fought like a guy who was able to cope with adversity better because of the Tank fight. I don’t know who Ryan will fight next but I do know it will be a BIG event. I hope he fights again before the year is out.
Ssup Bread,
Hope you and your family is doing well.
Man, none of us saw that coming. Brilliant coaching and corner advice by Derrick James.
I hear, James Toney was also a very difficult guy but Freddie Roach still found a way to get a few things through to him despite him being set in his own ways. Congratulations to Derrick James. Might be a lock for ‘trainer of the year’ already.
I saw Tim’s interview on Sean Zittel’s YouTube channel. As always, he was very astute in his observations with regard to what mistakes Devin made and how Derrick and Ryan picked them. He spoke specifics. Takes a brilliant boxing mind to have an observation that great. Of course, people are trolling him but they are idiots. Everyone picked Devin and Tim picked Devin in his own over the top style.
Two questions – 1. Did the fact that Devin killed himself trying to make weight and Ryan did not make such a huge difference? Ryan of course looked bigger and way stronger than Devin but do you think it was a big factor? I say this because there is a saying that one should not fight his sparring partner as they are way too familiar with their style. Ryan has fought Devin too many times and he may know his habits. That might be a reason Ryan beat Devin and weight advantage really didn’t matter. What is your take?
2. Did Derrick James and Ryan plan this? Did they deliberately miss the weight and pay the fine in order to feel stronger and healthier than Devin? They saw how weight can be used to drain someone in the Tank fight and decided to use this same trick this time. Unfortunately, he broke the rule for this advantage but you get what I mean.
Regards,
Saurabh
Bread’s Response: People were kicking Derrick James last year because Errol Spence and Jermell Charlo lost. Now they have to eat their words because James is the leading candidate for Trainer of the Year. Stand up Derrick. Good job brother.
I don’t know how much missing weight helped Ryan. But I suppose it did because he paid a hefty price for it. But Devin had 36 hours to rehydrate. So if he was depleted then he shouldn’t be fighting at 140lbs. That’s more than enough time to get back everything you lost, especially for a fighter who 2 fights ago, was making 135lbs. The win was more important to Ryan than the belt or money and that’s what he got. The win!
What’s up Bread,
I’m extremely excited for Crawford’s return. He’s one of the few fighters that is must-see TV no matter the opponent. Is this a solid test? Never seen Madrimov fight before, but could this be similar to the Postol fight? ( eastern European style). Haney’s loss was reminiscent to Broner-Maidana, Judah- Tsyzu or Naseem- Barrera.
Very disappointed in Devin’s lack of footwork/angles and adjustments. I hated to see Bill Haney disrespect Floyd afterwards, but idk the back story.
After the argument Floyd stayed on IG live and made small references to Devin’s mistakes. He talked about him throwing an improper jab and it got me thinking dude is such a savant he could’ve beat damn near anyone in his heyday due his technical adjustments.
If Ryan Garcia stays focused, he can become a diet De La Hoya if he listens to Derrick and develops a jab. He can be good at 147, but I’d start him real slow. Thanks as always for answering questions, my boxing knowledge is 10x that of my peers due to your mailbag.
Bread’s Response: I love the Crawford vs Madrimov fight. Madrimov is explosive and he started at 154lbs where as Terence started at 135lbs. Madrimov was also an amateur standout. I think Crawford wins but this has the making of a tough fight.
I think Devin was in an aggressive mode and once he got hurt it was hard to get out of that mode. I’ve seen that happen to several boxers. Devin had some success walking Ryan down. Ryan was turning his back and showing fatigue. But Devin’s accuracy was OFF. He couldn’t hit Ryan with many clean shots. That’s what’s interesting to me. Not only did Devin not land many clean shots, he got away from his jab which is his best punch. If there is a rematch, Devin will have to answer to himself WHY… Why did he get away from using his best punch.
I’m guessing it was because Ryan was countering his jab. But Devin has to stick to his jab. He just has to be more creative on how he throws it. But he can’t get away from it just because he was countered.
Loving the two mailbags. BoxingScene on Saturday mornings and PBC on Monday. I have a different type of question. How do you decide which questions you choose for each bag? And if there was one person you wanted to listen to breaking down a fight, who would that be?
Bread’s Response: Thank you. Yes I’m very busy with my two mailbags. BoxingScene’s mailbags are on Saturday so I usually pick topics that are relevant to what’s happening that Saturday night because the mailbag is published Saturday morning. The PBC mailbag comes out on Monday so I take topics that are relevant throughout the week or ones that are specifically to PBC fighters and nothing else. It works out for both sites.
Sup Bread?
Hope you’re well.
1. Historic comparison between Tszyu and Ortiz? Weird business fight to me. Feels a bit early for both. Two pressure fighters, Ortiz being more electric, Tim a better forward counter puncher. I expect a violent fight. Tszyu showed tones of heart, not the best chin. But he is more experienced, has more rounds. Ortiz is more electric and can get tired if he goes so hard so long. Illness plus 154 makes it even. Hyper violent fight nonetheless. Comparison?
2. Nice Payday for Ennis. Curious Cody is accepting. Getting twice as much as a Paris fight vs Cissokho. But I don’t get it. I see a Madrimov accepting an Ennis because those great amateurs feel an edge in experience and Madrimov has been a long time 154. But surprised Crowley would take the toughest fight out there.
3. Do you see the winner of Crawford-Madrimov vs Ennis-Crowley? They are setting this up.
4. Tough fight at 175 for Morrel. Kid is just behind Ennis as far as talent/avoidance/high risk low reward. But Ennis has made more of an impact. I hope he doesn’t get wasted because Morell has real talent.
5. What happened to Ramos? Dude arguably won the fight, draw-ish fight that stopped even Lubin’s comeback. What’s going on?
6. Garcia at MW. What fight can he win that will make him a star? Is there some sort of winnable fight for him to put them as the man at 160? Lara too experienced.
7. Ryan Garcia vs Benn at 144, who you got? I feel like Conor would overwhelm him.
8 .Devin can still thrive but since Linares we knew about his chin. Sure Garcia has the best one punch weapon in the game, but Haney will toy vs lesser punchers at range but has to be matched correctly. Russell, Teo, Matias, I think they take it. Even more now with the Ryan fight. Loma performance was great but drawish/kinda lost for most and against an ageing and smaller man. I think Matias and Russell get to him. Teo can connect late and stop him. Stevenson? Mystery.
Cheers
Diego
Bread’s Response: 1.Man this is a tough question. I don’t really have a historical comparison between Tszyu vs Ortiz. This won’t be exact but Zarate vs Zamora but is in the ballpark. As is Vasquez vs Marquez. But believe it or not the closest I could come up with is Barrera vs Morales with Tszyu being Barrera and Ortiz being Morales. I don’t like saying that a fight is can’t miss. But I feel like Tszyu vs Ortiz is can’t miss.
I don’t want to talk anyone OUT of the fight but I thought it was early too. But guess what, better early than late or never. In this era with fights being LOST through attrition I’m glad we are getting it.
2. I am also surprised Crowley took the fight. But I disagree with you not “getting it”. Fighters want to be great, so Crowley took a tough fight. But it’s a title shot. Let’s give him his props for taking the fight and not make him think that taking his first title shot is a bad business move. Crowley is acting like a real fighter.
3. It depends on how much money is involved. I feel like if someone can offer Terence Crawford between 25M-30M then he would fight Ennis. But that’s a BIG number… lets’ see how it plays out.
4. I agree about Morrell’s talent but I don’t agree about how tough his next upcoming fight is. Morrell has made most of his fights look easy….
5. I don’t know. I haven’t heard much from Jesus Ramos. He can fight. That close loss was just that, a close loss. Hopefully he’s not too down on himself.
6. I think Danny Garcia has a shot against Lara but he’s going to have to be in the shape of his life. DOG SHAPE to use his legs. Danny is a legit title at 154 or 160 from being a HOF. I don’t know who he can or can’t beat at those weights but I hope he gets a shot at one of the champions.
7. Ryan Garcia vs Conor Benn. Um…..I would lean towards Garcia. I would definitely be rooting for Garcia unapologetically. I didn’t like the feeling I got when Benn fought Chris Algieri and I didn’t speak on it until Benn tested positive. I don’t want to do the mental gymnastics to wonder how Benn would look dirty or clean.
8. So you think Devin loses to all of the top guys because of what you saw vs Ryan? Let’s see. I don’t like commenting on multiple match ups with the same fighter because you can only fight one fight at a time and each fight is a different scenario. Sometimes fights collectively influence a win or loss….
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